Angelina Jolie And Pablo Larraín

Angelina Jolie remembers the first time she was set to publicly embody the voice of prima donna assoluta Maria Callas in preparation for the Netflix film Maria. Her sons Maddox and Pax Jolie-Pitt stood watch protectively, like security. “I was so nervous,” Jolie recalls. “My boys guarded the doors.”

They were at a small theater in Greece, where, after months of singing lessons and vocal and breath coaching, Jolie would show filmmaker Pablo Larraín she was up to the task of portraying the famous arias associated with the legendary coloratura soprano. Callas died in 1977 and remains as popular now as when she was performing in great opera houses at the height of her fame in the 1950s and ’60s.

Like her boys, Larraín was protective of her too, ensuring a level of privacy a director usually reserves for shooting scenes of intense intimacy. Apart from him, only a handful of key crew was present that day: cinematographer, dolly, sound, a pianist and a singing teacher. No one else was allowed to enter the studio for Jolie’s first performance.

In her research, Jolie had watched a video of Callas giving a master class to students where she disclosed that discipline was the first principle. Callas taught, “Don’t think about the feeling, which is often what I start with,” Jolie says, “I’m a very emotional person.” But it was drummed into her, by Callas, almost reaching out from the past to guide her, to instruct her, really, to apply discipline first. Then, once the role and the music are understood, the other layers of feelings and emotion can be applied. That way, “You learn exactly what the composer intended, and only when you know that so perfectly well, can you add your personal feelings,” says Jolie.

 She had wanted to work with Larraín for “the longest time”, but initially had gotten to know his work as an audience member when she saw his film Neruda several years ago. Every time a new Larraín movie came out — Jackie, Spencer, you name it — she watched it. “I saw everything he has made,” she says.

Much later, they met for coffee, which progressed to meals of Middle Eastern cuisine, then to ordered-in pizza at her home in Los Angeles. “I can’t cook,” Jolie says.

Larraín says that after observing each other closely, he decided to ask her if she would portray Maria Callas. She needed time to think it over, and mostly, that pause was because she was scared about singing. “It’s the most vulnerable I’ve ever felt,” she says.

Here, the pair share their journey with Baz Bamigboye in a conversation that began up in the mountains during the Telluride Film Festival and concluded in London.

DEADLINE: Angelina, you wanted to work with Pablo for so long. What film of his really encouraged that desire?

ANGELINA JOLIE: Maybe, Neruda [Larraín’s 2016 film about Chilean poet Pablo Neruda]. And then I think it was just seeing them as I continued to watch his work, sometimes you see one thing, but as you watch a few things, you start to understand that even if the films are very different, there’s a language and there’s a consistency in a way he takes care of certain aspects of filmmaking.

DEADLINE: Did you think back then, I really want to work with this guy, he does interesting things?

JOLIE: It’s funny, I always probably put the working with somebody later. I think I was just looking at them as an audience member first, right? Yes. And I think like that, watching his films had an effect on me and that landed with me. And then yes, of course, then we met. And yeah, you just feel sometimes when you meet somebody, you get a sense that you’re like-minded and that there’s a trust there, because sometimes people can be the most amazing filmmaker, but not a very nice person, you know, to be very frank. Right?

PABLO LARRAÍN: Of course, same with actors [laughs].

JOLIE: And I’m not one of those people that can sacrifice one for the other, especially as an actor. If I am going to give all of myself and be open and vulnerable, I need to be with somebody who I think is, and who treats the crew well, who has an approach to life and work and family. All that is important because you’re so vulnerable and you’re giving so much of yourself that you want to have that. If you have that trust, then you can give them everything.

DEADLINE: Can you remember that first meeting?

LARRAÍN: We met a couple of years before we discussed this project.

JOLIE: Maria was the last thing we got to. I mean, we really had spent a few years being around each other a little bit and having a little friendly relationship.

LARRAÍN: That was before the pandemic for sure. It might be 2018 or 2017. It was in Los Angeles.

JOLIE: Everybody came over to the house. 

LARRAÍN: We had coffee once. And then we had coffee again, and then we had lunch. I remember with this sort of Middle East food which was very nice. And we had pizza.

DEADLINE: You had pizza?

LARRAÍN: Yeah, because I think it was like Halloween.

JOLIE: That’s right, my house was all decorated.

LARRAÍN: And then it was pizza for everyone, for the kids, whatever. So, I go in and I just joined the pizza situation.

DEADLINE: Was that pizza that was delivered or did you prepare the dough and cook it yourself?

JOLIE: [laughing] No, no, I can’t cook.

LARRAÍN: I remember it was in these boxes.

JOLIE: I spoiled him. I spoiled him with pizza.

LARRAÍN: I love pizza. It really worked out.

DEADLINE: Pablo, you’d obviously been aware of Angelina’s work, but when did you think, this artist has something that I want to know about and understand and work with?

LARRAÍN: Well, of course, by now we knew each other from these meetings before. And then what I remember is that before I even mentioned anything to Angie, we set up a screening of Spencer on the Paramount Lot. And then after that, I called her and I said, “Look, would you play Maria Callas?” That was the first time the subject had been broached. We were on the phone, and she said, “I need a couple of days to think about it.” And I was like, “OK, sure.” And then a couple of days after that we spoke and she said, “I’ll do it.” And after that, we hired Steve Knight [screenwriter]. From then on, it was like the chicken or the egg. It was always, in this case, I don’t think there’s a movie without Angie playing that role.

DEADLINE: And why did you think that? What were the strengths that you saw in her to portray the greatest prima donna assoluta?

LARRAÍN: Well, there are a number of things, but I think the most important one is that I think after all these years of research reading, I think I read over nine or 10 biographies out of the 20 to 25 that are out there, I’d watched pretty much every documentary, read every interview. There was very extensive research. You get to understand that you really don’t know who she was. You think you do, but there’s a distortion in the public eye — the idea that, because that person has some form of exposure, because her work is so well known, that you could almost talk to her and know who she must be. I don’t think that’s what it is. I don’t think this is a proper biopic. That is an invention from culture. I don’t think a movie can actually capture anyone in reality, unless that person is in front of you talking to you.

DEADLINE: But it captures an essence. 

LARRAÍN: Of course that is the ambition, and I appreciate you thought that, but that process is different from the actual reality. You create an illusion that can capture the spirit of that person. But the reason why I think Maria is very hard to completely understand is because she had a very high level of mystery. She was someone that would choose when to share something and open herself and then when not to. And I think Angelina has that.

DEADLINE: Angelina has mystery.

LARRAÍN: Yes, and can also play it and control it. So, even though she’s in 98% of the scenes of this film, I think, and when she’s not there, it is her younger self. So there is always a Maria, and even though the camera is very close, most of the time, she chooses when to let the audience in and when not. And that is the essence of cinema. So, the audience can complete it [by] looking. And I don’t want to make a movie that is just by myself or whoever is behind the camera. There’s always something that’s intriguing. So, the audience, they have an active job. And also, of course, there’s the basic necessity to have someone that could play that elegance, that could wear that fashion, that could be on that stage, that could create an intense magnetism.

DEADLINE: Angelina, you get this phone call from Pablo. What is your immediate reaction to the idea of portraying Maria Callas? 

JOLIE: Well, my first thought is, because I wanted to work with him so long, I was so happy that there was some potential to work together and that he was passionate about something. So anytime you have an artist you respect, and you like their work, and they’re passionate about something, it’s exciting. But I think the reality of her… I wanted a second to understand. I knew of her, I knew a bit of her music, but I wanted a few days to kind of look into her life and sit with the thought of, did I feel I could bring something to this? Because it’s a big responsibility to take on somebody’s life. And to feel that you are the right person to do it. I think I was nervous about this when I wasn’t 100% sure right away. And then of course, the singing was something that I hadn’t done. And so, it was just a big one to take on. But it was knowing that his intention… I felt, I just wasn’t 100% sure. And I think that’s the most exciting thing about being an artist, when you’re a little frightened and you’re not sure what it’s going to be, but you trust your partner and you want to try. And you care about the subject matter.

DEADLINE: How did you convey your decision to Pablo?

LARRAÍN: We talked on the phone.

JOLIE: Yes, we talked.

DEADLINE: And what reassurances did you give to Angelina, particularly about the singing? 

JOLIE: Yeah. [Eyeing him and laughing] What were the reassurances?

LARRAÍN: I feel like there were layers. I elegantly pressured her.

DEADLINE: Well put. What did “elegantly” pressuring her involve?

LARRAÍN: Layers, as I mentioned. You know, I said how important the singing is, it’s very challenging. It is not pop music. I have some ideas on how to do it. There’s this trainer here, there’s the other trainer there, and slowly go into the process. And I am not sure, I’m not going to speak for her because she’s here. But I am not sure if you were entirely aware of the size of the talent.

JOLIE: No.

LARRAÍN: There you go. It was because you can’t cheat in opera. If you play, I don’t know, a record of any song from David Bowie or Taylor Swift, you name it, you can probably jump into the car, jump in the shower, or anywhere in your house, and you can sing along and do a decent job. Try that with opera. You just can’t track the melody because of the pitch of the voice. It’s very difficult. And particularly with Callas, who had this very famous sort of break up and down where it’s just very uneven, unevenly perfect.

DEADLINE: And Callas knew where the drama was in those arias.

JOLIE: Yes.

DEADLINE: And you did too, Angelina.

LARRAÍN: Of course. It requires a very long and specific training. And I think the beautiful part of it is that it’s not only the necessity of the technicality, but it was as well the best way to approach the character, the best preparation to play Callas, which is you actually follow those steps in the singing, because then the way you shoot it… Maybe people think that there’s loud speakers on the side and she’s just mimicking the voice. That’s not how it works. She has an earpiece and she’s singing and what the crew, and eventually the other cast, and eventually the extras, are listening to, is only Angie’s voice and nothing else is sounding on the set. We needed to capture that, capture every sound that’s made, and then bring it into the mixing stage, and then choose how to blend both voices. So there’s always a part of a fragment of Angie singing and that’s what gives truth. Otherwise, it won’t be possible. You’ll never believe it.

DEADLINE: So, you say yes to this, and he’s elegantly pressuring you — I like that phrase. Do you think, oh my Christ, I want to work with this guy, but I’ve said yes to something that is going to scare the bejeezus out of me for what was it …?

JOLIE: Seven months. It was seven months [laughs]. And then all through the film, I mean, after filming every day I would go back to the piano to rehearse for the following day. It was living as a singer. I don’t play the piano, but I had to learn little bits. Wherever I went, whether it was a dressing room or hotel room, we always had to have the piano, the keyboard, the teacher nearby, and at night it was the warm-ups.

LARRAÍN: [Interrupts by demonstrating scales] Do, re, mi, la, la, la, la…

JOLIE: Yes, that. And it was a very different way of living and working. I did what he was just doing all the time, morning, noon and night. And we’d be practicing, and then we’d have breaks. He would try to give me… because when you sing that much all day long, I would need sometimes to have a day or two to just rest the voice before I had to do it again. So, he tried to help me to find my voice. The loveliest thing is he was taking me seriously as a singer at a certain point, which I think, I wouldn’t have taken myself seriously that way. I would’ve had trouble. But he was taking it seriously. And so, the training around me, the schedule, the way it was considered was very serious. And it did allow me to make that change in my life. But no, I didn’t really understand. I didn’t understand I was going to be the only sound in the room standing on the stage at La Scala. I did not understand that. And I think, there were certain pieces, like [Donizetti’s] Anna Bolena. And he didn’t give me all the pieces right away. I would get a couple, which was the right thing to do, because he knew not to overwhelm me. He would say, “Here’s the first two to try.” And I’d kind of jump into them and go, “Oh, OK, it’ll take me a second.” And then once that was done, then a new one would come in. That was a little more challenging. And then the last one was the most challenging but the most wonderful.

DEADLINE: Which aria?

JOLIE: Anna Bolena.

DEADLINE: That scene gave me goosebumps.

LARRAÍN: It was the scale. We started at a soundstage, you remember, in Paris?

JOLIE: Oh, yeah. I think that was a really nerve wracking day because I had been doing most of my training in LA on my own with the teachers, and he’d been talking to the teachers, but I was even nervous to send video of myself singing. I was just nervous.

DEADLINE: About how he would react?

JOLIE: Yeah, I just felt like I wasn’t ready. “Wait, wait, wait. Let me just try to…” so I hadn’t really done it. Then we had to, he was very gracious and patient, but he was like, “OK, I need to see you sing before we start shooting.” And so, we went to this little sound stage and room in Paris with the piano and a few people.

LARRAÍN: But it was funny because that little sound stage is where most of David Bowie’s recordings happened. There were all these posters of famous singers. It was very intimidating to walk in there. And then she did a great job.

DEADLINE: Performing the Donizetti?

JOLIE: No, no, that was just singing. That would be the first time showing him. I would just stand there with the crew; somebody would be playing the piano and I would just stand there, and I would just sing.

LARRÁIN: I think it was “Ava Maria”.

JOLIE: And he was just able to hear, look, listen, and me kind of perform for him.

LARRAÍN: And then we did the first singing piece in a very small place, a theater In Greece. And then it was almost like shooting, I always make fun of this, like a sex scene when you say, everyone out! But it was like everyone out, because we wanted to protect Angie.

JOLIE: I was so nervous.

LARRAÍN: It was basically, like having security with, I think it was Maddox on the door.

JOLIE: My boys were guarding the doors [laughs]. I was so, so nervous and my boys were protecting me. My boys, Maddox and Pax, looking out for me. It wasn’t asked that of them. They just moved to the door.

LARRAÍN: The boys were guarding to the door. And then it was me and the camera, the guy on the dolly, sound and your vocal coach. And then the second time there were more people. And the third time there were a lot of people. And we would scale it up until the last time she sang was at La Scala, in the cathedral of opera, with a lot of people there. 

DEADLINE: And by that time, you had become comfortable with the singing?

JOLIE: That day at La Scala was so beyond anything I’d ever done in my life and so beyond my comfort zone, that it was like, I couldn’t even feel myself. It was such an enormous moment. But I think I was both extremely… The idea that I was doing that, performing as Maria Callas at La Scala, could I pull it off and was my voice going to be good that day? And could I do this thing, and could I perform this? And then the other side of me, it was like, this is the greatest day of my life as an artist. I get to be here with this team of people that I love so much performing in the footsteps of this extraordinary woman that I’ve come to care about, who’s so brilliant, performing this extraordinary piece of music, on this stage with those acoustics. And so, at a certain point, whether I was going to succeed or fail, I would do my best. But I didn’t let it pass me by that I was the luckiest woman in the world to have that experience. 

DEADLINE: Well, only a supreme artist can portray another and pull it off. You cast her for that reason, Pablo, so you know this, right?

LARRAÍN: Yes, of course, of course. You live in danger. True artists are exposed to a dangerous life. And danger doesn’t mean that you’re about to jump out the window. It’s the danger of pain, the danger of a weird way of joy, the danger of not sleeping, the danger of thinking that you’re useless, the danger of being diminished by your own work. And that fear can be paralyzing or can be extremely moving and can put you back into the work. I went to this exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery [in London], just down the road, and I saw Francis Bacon’s work, his portraiture. It’s great, but it’s very painful. I walked out and I had all these feelings. It’s so painful, so beautiful. So of course, there’s a lot of joy and enlightenment here. That’s an artist’s work.

DEADLINE: Angelina, to discover that joy and pain, to have to dig deep into her psyche and character, did you have to go to places that aren’t always pleasant to find her?

JOLIE: I think that’s true, yes. You open up yourself and at times you can’t breathe when you’re performing those arias. It’s deeply connecting to perform something in front of an audience. It’s like the final piece after all of the work, the preparations, to arrive at that point. Your vulnerabilities are exposed. What a blessing to be an artist. You live and you study life and emotion and feeling and connection. I can’t explain any further because then you go to a place that’s so personal. 

LARRAÍN: What she says in the movie, she says, “There’s no beautiful melody made out of happiness.” That is a Callas quote that Steve [Knight] took and Angie says in the movie. 

DEADLINE: Angelina, were there any moments where you said, Pablo, I love you, but I can’t do this?

LARRAÍN: I’ll answer that. She did, but she eventually did it.

JOLIE: Oh yeah. And it was the simplest thing in the world. It wasn’t a big thing. It was like a tiny little improvised scene that I felt, I liked the way we’d done it outside. And then it was lovely. And he was right. But it wasn’t something that was like this big challenge I was afraid of. It was just, I didn’t understand it. I didn’t feel it working in the moment, but he was right.

DEADLINE: What was the scene?

JOLIE: The card scene, it was an improvisation.

DEADLINE: When we met in Telluride you revealed that you hadn’t been able to listen to Callas because it reminded you of, let’s say the joy and pain, of portraying Callas. Has that changed?

JOLIE: Yes, she’s back. I started listening to her again. She’s back, the healing has begun. It was Tosca, “Vissi D’Arte”. I chose that because it was the one that probably I associated with so much pain because of the end of the film. I hadn’t been able to listen because of all of those associations. I wanted to come back to that. In a strange kind of way, the music, when we were filming, helped heal a part of me. 

DEADLINE: I felt, watching your performance, that’s it’s the kind of role an artist waits an awfully long time for.

JOLIE: You can wait a long time for this kind of work, for this kind of role. You asked before if it was the role of a lifetime and I suppose so, yes. And I waited a long time to work with Pablo and I see the result as a real gift.